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dvd commentary (sort of): essentual singularity
I refuse to do a full-on commentary for this one, because it's epic and ruthless and scary and I only wrote half of it, but ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
nextian asked me some questions about it.
I am doing this for Aria & Emma on the condition that they show me their Thomas/Henry. As I told Ji: this will render the vicious quadrilateral complete, and the four of us will never again be able to disentangle our cynicisms, and there shall be wacky crossover drabbles galore!
Does Thomas ever find out the truth about Thom? About Lucifer?
I doubt it, unless Lucifer decides to tell him just to fuck with Thom. Which isn't outside the realms of possibility! But Thomas being Thomas, he would demand scientific proof and then have a week or so of sorting out his worldview and then he'd launch right into accusing Thom of cheating in their professional competition by making deals with the devil. And demanding to meet Thom's sister. And generally making a nuisance of himself and enjoying every second of it as GLORIOUS PAYBACK.
How long does Lucifer keep coming back?
As long as Thom stays interesting. He probably expresses some kind of mocking surprise that Thom's bothered to keep Thomas around for so long, and then Thom probably calls him out on the hypocrisy of that, and then they drink too much and talk about the triplets and nuclear war and other mutual topics.
For the record, Lucifer would have thought twice before, uh, torturing Thom and taking him to Gallipolli and making out against trees and then indulging in bizarrely kleptomanic Turkish tourism (oh, man, Ji, remember that?) if he knew the kid would have this much staying power. And I'm glad I DID write Lucifer as well as Thomas in this fic, otherwise I think it would have just destroyed my will to live.
Is there anything in this fic that Thom never figured out that is true about Thomas? Or is Thomas just very, very penetrable?
Basically I am going to just talk and talk about Thomas for a while, okay? Lots of this is copied or paraphrased from a chat that Ji & I had immediately after she wrote up HER commentary on the fic.
Writing this fic was an intriguing exercise for me, because not only was I inventing a character from scratch (not something I do very often, actually), I was the resident expert on a character whilst still writing the fic entirely from the POV of...a different character. So a lot of Thomas comes through very clearly, but some of it is necessarily hidden. I had to work Thomas out as events progressed, but I was always writing him REACTING, not the motivations for the reactions. And while I was juggling Thomas himself inside my head, I had to write Thom's own reactions to the APPEARANCE of Thomas, not what Thomas was actually like. That said, there is lot less difference between appearance-of-Thomas and actual-Thomas than there is for Thom. But because the audience of the fic gets to SEE actual-Thom...the distance for Thomas seems intriguingly large.
At the beginning Thomas is used to having a certain amount of a facade, but it's a normal one. Suppressing anger, trying to be polite even when he's in a bad mood, that kind of thing. When he starts to become close to Thom, that breaks down because Thom is so damn good at irritating him and getting sincere emotional reactions; and it's a relationship! You're supposed to be open in relationships! And then he starts to work out that Thom is playing a game, and he feels hurt by it, but he's got enough pride and self-confidence that he reacts by rebuilding the facade with...alterations. Because by then different things seem important, and by the end of the fic he is actually showing things he'd otherwise have kept locked down (eg. violence, a subtle gift for cruelty) and hiding anything that could give Thom the edge in the game. In some ways it's a total reassortment, but Thomas -- the person he is and the things that he wants -- has only changed by a small amount. What has changed is the way he approaches the world, and the assumptions he makes about the people in it. I think Thom has actually made Thomas better equipped to succeed, which is ironic considering that he wanted to break him. Thomas probably would have gotten quite far on his own charisma and ability to be personable, but learning how to be manipulated and how to manipulate, while still in college, probably spared him a few setbacks later on.
The major point that doesn't come through in the fic is that Thomas is occasionally a step ahead of the game, and occasionally using Thom as...an excuse. Certainly not at the beginning, but definitely after the fight that Lucifer catalyses. Thomas is shocked that he has the capacity for violence and for such a dichotomous relationship, but he realises quite fast that Thom is using him for something, some need of his own. So he doesn't feel too guilty about exploring his OWN ability to engage in such a relationship, and to enjoy it. I don't think it made him much more likely to be cruel, just aware of his own potential, and pleased to have an outlet for it. Ji mentioned that Thom wanted to ruin Thomas for relationships with other people, and I think that bit certainly worked. I mean, he is probably still capable of falling in love, maybe even getting married and having a good life. But he'll still have this other awakened side of himself which he will never be able to share except with Thom, and his ideas of love have been dirtied and made more complex. Thom has definitely made him less idealistic and more cynical and less likely to start any other relationships.
Because...part of him does love Thom, to a certain extent. He's fully aware of how ironic and dangerous that love is, and he's no longer able to be manipulated by it except on rare occasions, but he still wants to ruffle Thom's hair and buy him stupid gifts and get him drunk and push him into cacti. And help him with his problems, and steal his research, and laugh at his taste in clothes, and say filthy things to him during awards ceremonies to see if the blush reflex is still there. And maybe shout at him sometimes and hit him and know better than to feel guilty about it.
...I love Thomas a lot. If that isn't obvious. He's an ambitious, intelligent, charming boy with a steady temper, a spirit that can be both generous and competitive, and a wide streak of cruelty and possession. A lot about him seems weirdly contradictory, I guess, but he makes sense to meand Aria! *clings*
nextian asked me some questions about it. I am doing this for Aria & Emma on the condition that they show me their Thomas/Henry. As I told Ji: this will render the vicious quadrilateral complete, and the four of us will never again be able to disentangle our cynicisms, and there shall be wacky crossover drabbles galore!
Does Thomas ever find out the truth about Thom? About Lucifer?
I doubt it, unless Lucifer decides to tell him just to fuck with Thom. Which isn't outside the realms of possibility! But Thomas being Thomas, he would demand scientific proof and then have a week or so of sorting out his worldview and then he'd launch right into accusing Thom of cheating in their professional competition by making deals with the devil. And demanding to meet Thom's sister. And generally making a nuisance of himself and enjoying every second of it as GLORIOUS PAYBACK.
How long does Lucifer keep coming back?
As long as Thom stays interesting. He probably expresses some kind of mocking surprise that Thom's bothered to keep Thomas around for so long, and then Thom probably calls him out on the hypocrisy of that, and then they drink too much and talk about the triplets and nuclear war and other mutual topics.
For the record, Lucifer would have thought twice before, uh, torturing Thom and taking him to Gallipolli and making out against trees and then indulging in bizarrely kleptomanic Turkish tourism (oh, man, Ji, remember that?) if he knew the kid would have this much staying power. And I'm glad I DID write Lucifer as well as Thomas in this fic, otherwise I think it would have just destroyed my will to live.
Is there anything in this fic that Thom never figured out that is true about Thomas? Or is Thomas just very, very penetrable?
Basically I am going to just talk and talk about Thomas for a while, okay? Lots of this is copied or paraphrased from a chat that Ji & I had immediately after she wrote up HER commentary on the fic.
Writing this fic was an intriguing exercise for me, because not only was I inventing a character from scratch (not something I do very often, actually), I was the resident expert on a character whilst still writing the fic entirely from the POV of...a different character. So a lot of Thomas comes through very clearly, but some of it is necessarily hidden. I had to work Thomas out as events progressed, but I was always writing him REACTING, not the motivations for the reactions. And while I was juggling Thomas himself inside my head, I had to write Thom's own reactions to the APPEARANCE of Thomas, not what Thomas was actually like. That said, there is lot less difference between appearance-of-Thomas and actual-Thomas than there is for Thom. But because the audience of the fic gets to SEE actual-Thom...the distance for Thomas seems intriguingly large.
At the beginning Thomas is used to having a certain amount of a facade, but it's a normal one. Suppressing anger, trying to be polite even when he's in a bad mood, that kind of thing. When he starts to become close to Thom, that breaks down because Thom is so damn good at irritating him and getting sincere emotional reactions; and it's a relationship! You're supposed to be open in relationships! And then he starts to work out that Thom is playing a game, and he feels hurt by it, but he's got enough pride and self-confidence that he reacts by rebuilding the facade with...alterations. Because by then different things seem important, and by the end of the fic he is actually showing things he'd otherwise have kept locked down (eg. violence, a subtle gift for cruelty) and hiding anything that could give Thom the edge in the game. In some ways it's a total reassortment, but Thomas -- the person he is and the things that he wants -- has only changed by a small amount. What has changed is the way he approaches the world, and the assumptions he makes about the people in it. I think Thom has actually made Thomas better equipped to succeed, which is ironic considering that he wanted to break him. Thomas probably would have gotten quite far on his own charisma and ability to be personable, but learning how to be manipulated and how to manipulate, while still in college, probably spared him a few setbacks later on.
The major point that doesn't come through in the fic is that Thomas is occasionally a step ahead of the game, and occasionally using Thom as...an excuse. Certainly not at the beginning, but definitely after the fight that Lucifer catalyses. Thomas is shocked that he has the capacity for violence and for such a dichotomous relationship, but he realises quite fast that Thom is using him for something, some need of his own. So he doesn't feel too guilty about exploring his OWN ability to engage in such a relationship, and to enjoy it. I don't think it made him much more likely to be cruel, just aware of his own potential, and pleased to have an outlet for it. Ji mentioned that Thom wanted to ruin Thomas for relationships with other people, and I think that bit certainly worked. I mean, he is probably still capable of falling in love, maybe even getting married and having a good life. But he'll still have this other awakened side of himself which he will never be able to share except with Thom, and his ideas of love have been dirtied and made more complex. Thom has definitely made him less idealistic and more cynical and less likely to start any other relationships.
Because...part of him does love Thom, to a certain extent. He's fully aware of how ironic and dangerous that love is, and he's no longer able to be manipulated by it except on rare occasions, but he still wants to ruffle Thom's hair and buy him stupid gifts and get him drunk and push him into cacti. And help him with his problems, and steal his research, and laugh at his taste in clothes, and say filthy things to him during awards ceremonies to see if the blush reflex is still there. And maybe shout at him sometimes and hit him and know better than to feel guilty about it.
...I love Thomas a lot. If that isn't obvious. He's an ambitious, intelligent, charming boy with a steady temper, a spirit that can be both generous and competitive, and a wide streak of cruelty and possession. A lot about him seems weirdly contradictory, I guess, but he makes sense to me
no subject
YES
Sadly this is the most intelligent commentary I have, and now instead of making intelligent commentary about what you just said, I am going to do the awful thing I often do in real-life conversation and try to respond to what you just said by qualifying by way of my own experience, so, um: I am v. proud of Thom for accidentally making Thomas better equipped for dealing with the world, because Henry was perfectly good at dealing with things thank you very much before Thomas came along and now he is not handicapped but... he is never not going to be a nice person, he just doesn't want to be anymore. I am not sure if this is a fundamental difference or if it's the same thing from two different angles and I don't even know what I'm talking about here.
BUT my YES re: stupid gifts and cacti may not make too much sense cos I don't think Henry actually attempts to beat up Thomas in the thing I just sent you. He doesn't try that until three years later but I am not going to inflict that on you, because it's ~140 pages and showing no signs of ending and is what Emma and I write when we want witty banter and have nothing better to do.
Anyway in conclusion I love your Thomas too and request that he gets a last name that does not begin with M so that in future I can call Emma's Thomas Thomas M and your Thomas Thomas something else.
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This is gen'r'lly the point at which I protest that, thank you very much, that is exactly what makes the two fics the same, it's just that Thom succeeds in getting out of them unscathed by Thomas Beech's relentless charisma, and Thomas Moore doesn't. But of course Thomas Beech was less likely to be the reincarnation of King Bloody Arthur, so less is being 'spoiled' there.
okay now FAHYE. Yay, this is exactly what I hoped was the case, especially Thomas', er, using of Thom for his own purposes, da? and their future plans, which I hope will get firmly in the way of Thom's plans to be a horrible biological ruination of the world, or alternately totally encourage him.
Re the first question: The image of Thomas ruining Thom's mystique by asking all sorts of pertinent and specific questions is lovely. It -- raises the interesting secondary question (possibly only interesting in my head) that, if he's an OC, would he even be able to go to Milliways? XD and what in god's name would that do to the proper sort of scientist? Oh man.
Thomas Beech IN CONCLUSION is amazing. <3
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I doubt anything Thomas does could get in the way of Thom's grand plans, though I imagine he would certainly try. And then not speak for Thom for months. And then sigh, discard a little bit more of his soul, and go to see what he was up to. Because he feels responsible for Thom. Like they constructed parts of each other and thus hold patents.
no subject
That is interesting! I think...Thomas will never lose his sense of decency, and his tendency to be nice to everyone in social situations, but Thom has allowed him to discard niceness when needed. However, he very seldom does discard it unless it's, well, with Thom. And possibly other professional rivals; they're likely to be collateral damage from the ruthlessness that is required for Thomas to play the game to Thom's amoral standards.
(As you can tell in the fic, Thomas feels SO BAD about the hitting until he clicks to the fact -- quite a few weeks later -- that Thom is delighted about it. And not even for masochistic reasons, for ha-I-broke-Thomas! reasons. This realisation gives Thomas a choice: stop doing it on principle (resist the manipulation) or keep doing it on his own terms. Of course it is never entirely on his own terms. But he stops feeling bad about it.)
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I will not say most of the things Thom feels because they are terrible, however he wishes it to be clear that Thomas is of course free to have as many other relationships as he likes, all the way from casual sex to wife and kids.
The whole trapped on Earth thing is more confining than I thought at first, also ...
PS I WILL NEVER FORGET TURKEY.
pps more "Sam" and Thomas Beech interaction would basically make my life a glorious place filled with innumerable somethings à la a cheery Mountain Goats song.
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But then Thom screws THAT right up by turning out to like him even more (kind of) when his temper breaks down and he cheats at things. WORLDVIEW REASSORTMENT.
But no matter how much he secretly knows about Thom's motives and no matter how aware he is of their situation, Thom is still pretty much in control of their relationship. Because he's still a) the nastier human being, and b) less in love with Thomas than Thomas is with him. He'll never lose that edge.
I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE SAPPY PARTS UNTIL I WROTE THIS. YOU KNOW ME.
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