what's so amazing about really deep thoughts?

[fahye]

(Do I get the Golden Emo award for using Tori Amos lyrics as a subject line? Do I? Do I?)

Anyway. Nny's been doing some interesting musing about bisexuality and the importance of gender, and what with the conservative Federal Government fucking us around as per usual I've been feeling a little self-reflective. No Big Profound Messages, just some stuff that's been floating around in my head as of late.



For those just tuning in: yes, I identify as bisexual, and it's a label that I'm comfortable with. I know a lot of people prefer 'omnisexual' or similar to encompass looser gender issues, or don't like labels at all, but this one sits on me fine. I worked it out/talked it out with/came out to a handful of my closest friends about three years ago - before that I was perfectly happy to be defined as a tolerant straight girl, but I started questioning myself and didn't really take more than a couple of months to make a relatively painless shift. Painless because my friends were nothing but supportive and many of them are gay or bi themselves, and because I knew that it would not be an issue with my family when I told them. I'm now pretty much out to anyone who asks. And anyone who doesn't, as you can see :D

I have never been in a relationship with anyone of either gender and my sexual experience is limited to one french kiss (with a guy I wasn't remotely attracted to, during a game of spin the bottle), but I do not think that this precludes sexual identification. I have a relatively low and very mercurial sex drive, but I have been attracted to members of both sexes. And I do think that gender is important - I find androgyny appealing in males, but rarely in females. This does not mean that I am a Sekrit Lesbian and want everyone to be girly: I don't. But my aesthetic appreciation leans to the pretty side of things more often than not. I adore pretty girls and I don't find heavily built-up men attractive (though Jamie Bamber is kind of changing my mind on that account, bless his biceps). Bisexuality to me means that I think I would be perfectly happy dating a guy OR a girl, though I do tend to go through stages during which I am attracted more (on a purely visual-judgement basis) to one gender. Gender is not irrelevant. Gender is an important part of who someone is.

That said, I don't have a lot of experience with people who identify as genderfluid or trans (not_in_denial is to slap me if I say anything accidentally offensive) and whilst I like to think that I'd be open and accepting and not care, I honestly don't know. If attraction is a rare thing for me, then actual crushes in which personality are considered are even rarer. I've had, uh, 1.5? In my life? And one may be developing at the moment. I am so proud of me.

(Here is where I'd add in the normal disclaimer about my normal reaction to finding out that someone likes me back, which invariably falls under a) immediate disinterest or b) panic attacks, but that's not really what I want to talk about.)

I am not sure if I have ever been in love.

By some schools of thought, this means I haven't. (Though I'm interested to hear other people's views on this.)

I'm fine with that.

You know me. I am most comfortable assessing situations and maintaining standpoints with my sense of reason - my emotions aren't nearly strong enough to build anything on, and my sex drive is unstable. So taking a more objective view; I don't know where I'd like to end up. I have something of an automatic disdain for males that I am trying to get rid of, but...I have less patience for guys, I hold them to high standards and I trust them less easily. I think this has at least a bit to do with why relationships don't happen to me, because I am dismissive and (let's face it) not a particularly nice person in RL, especially with guys, and liking girls is all very well except for the heteronormative assumption that I do apply (and that does apply) in most situations.

I have no rational objection to relationships either casual or long-term, which makes my aversive gut reaction all the more frustrating. I'd like to get married if I find someone compatible, but I do not want to bear and raise children. However, as I was discussing with various people last night, I am very taken with the idea of being a breadwinner. If I married ('married', whatever, let's assume I'm as legal as the law allows) a woman and she wanted to have children, I would be happy to work hard and earn money so that she could stay home or work part-time or whatever. I...I don't think I could have children myself, but I wouldn't be averse to a parental role. If that makes sense.

(Ji says I am a boy from the 1950s. To this I say: well, all the online quizzes that try to guess your gender think I am a guy. But I don't have any gender issues, so...sure, maybe I have masculine ideals. MAYBE THIS MAKES ME SEXIST. Oh, I don't know.)

For the moment, most of this is academic. I would like to be in a relationship, but I think if I wanted it enough I would be more active in seeking one out, stupidly high standards and crazy emotional aversions or no. For now it's not a priority, just something that would be nice if it happened, but my relationship-cravings are getting steadily stronger.

This does not make me any less angry about the attacks on same-sex unions that are occurring all over the place, because one day I damn well MIGHT want the legal and financial security - even ignoring the implications for social equality and tolerance for now - that can be gained through whatever model we can get. Maybe I will want to raise children with my partner. I'd like to be able to do that without moving to sodding Canada.

Though I do hear Canada is very nice.

Thoughts?

Comments

[whatimages.livejournal.com]

I don't have thoughts so much as a 'word'. I agree absolutely with what you said about gender- I feel that the importance of gender in terms of physical attraction is downplayed a lot, which is misleading.

Also, Canada is very nice ^_^. Though they are planning to vote to reopen debate on the same-sex marriage law- I'm trying to supress my flaily raging liberal panic attack.

[fahye.livejournal.com]

Do you have a personal perspective? Experiences?

I would have to weigh OMG COLD against GOOD MUSIC and FRENCH.

[whatimages.livejournal.com]

I don't have much by way of personal experiences (having never been in a relationship) but I definitely think there's a stigma or whatever attatched to bisexuality, in that bisexuals don't care about gender which is (at least for me) patently untrue. Personally, I care about gender-there are things I look for in girls that I don't look for in boys, and vice-versa. To say that gender doesn't matter oversimplifies the whole construct. Gender informs a huge part of how people act and think, and to discount it entirely doesn't do anyone a favour. Which is not to say it's the only determining factor, but I do feel that gender gets downplayed. Why, I'm not entirely sure- maybe an offshoot of the fight for social gender equality?

I would hardly call french a selling factor! Though maybe that's just the bitter student talking :D

[fahye.livejournal.com]

I think there are all sorts of mild stigmas attached to bisexuality, ranging from 'oh, so you'll sleep with anyone' to the kind of bisexual that Nny described as a 'Friday night lesbian', who'll do it for attention or to make themselves appear more attractive. I've never kissed a girl. I'd like to. But I wouldn't kiss one just to get attention. (Well...okay, maybe I would. BUT I WOULD ALSO CONSIDER DATING HER IF SHE WAS NICE. And then kiss her in private.)

I love French! Love! This is successful and sad-she-had-to-drop-it student talking.

I cannot use the Icon Of Jane's Breasts enough.

[whatimages.livejournal.com]

Well...okay, maybe I would. BUT I WOULD ALSO CONSIDER DATING HER IF SHE WAS NICE. And then kiss her in private

Hahaha. YES.

And it is a fabulous icon. Hee.

[-leareth.livejournal.com]

MOVE TO VANCOUVER WITH ME!

/end funny

Eh, you said everything you said to me earlier and I could want to say, so again, let's just storm the Parliament and tell the coalition where to shove their territory-amending power.

[fahye.livejournal.com]

OOH YES SURE. Though I'll have to wait ten years or so until I'm a fully qualified and exportable doctor, but whatever.

Oh, that is a highly comforting icon.

[not-in-denial.livejournal.com]

People would go and write things like this when I've been out most of the day and therefore braindead.

That said, no, you didn't say anything offensive (at least not in my opinion, but then again, being genderfucked doesn't mean that one is not an asshole...such is life).

I'm a member of the school of thought that subscribes to "if you don't know, then you haven't been in love"...but that's possibly just because love is such a draining, explody kind of thing to me.

Bisexual is a nifty fine label if it fits. I usually go with "dominant" because gender really means nothing to me in terms of relationships, but a submissive nature in my partners is a must. Therefore, my orientation is "dominant".

You do inspire me to write my own post about this. Which therefore means I should shut up and save it all for said entry.

Tomorrow. After I've had some sleep and am no longer going "Why, oh why, couldn't Bryan Singer just postpone Superman Returns or X3 and work on both, instead of leaving X3 in the hands of someone who clearly has no idea what ey's doing?"

[kcdl.livejournal.com]

Cool, you can be my sugar-mummy. You can work while I sit at home bare-foot and pregnant and work on my art.

I'm sure there is at least one vital flaw in the above scenario but can't for the life of me see what it is....

On a more serious note I really think we have to do something about this government interference. What was the point of giving the ACT self-government in the first place if they won't let us self govern?! Is there some sort of protest rally, or better yet molotov cocktail throwing riot I can be a part of to protest this?

[brynnmck.livejournal.com]

Very interesting thoughts, and hey! I'd love it if you moved to Canada. ;)

OK, rambling, because it's early and I'm not coherent yet, but this is all really interesting to me.

Re: gender and sexuality: I bascially ascribe to the whole continuum theory of sexuality: there's exclusively heterosexual at one end, and exclusively homosexual at the other end, and most people fall in the middle somewhere. But I have wondered a lot about where, exactly, the line is between affection and attraction, a close friendship and a romantic relationship. I mean, obviously sexual attraction is part of it, but it's not all of it. And I have had very close female friends before where, in retrospect, I wonder if there wasn't a dimension to some of those relationships that I wasn't paying attention to just because I wasn't really considering women as potential romantic partners. I mean, I have massive girl-crushes on lots of actresses, and a few of my friends, as well (and I was a theater major, so lord knows there was enough physicality and sexual energy and just general emotion rushing around at all times to knock us all flat), but I've only really been tempted to make out with a girl once, and I was in a relationship at the time so it wasn't an option. But the temptation to make out doesn't seem like it should be the deciding factor, either. :) All of which is to state the very obvious: sexuality and romantic relationships are just fucking confusing, even if you're lucky enough to have very tolerant friends, as I do, and as it sounds like you do. And I suspect this is more about me than about you, so I will move on now.

In your case, I do think that you're probably right in that if and when a relationship becomes a priority to you--whether that's a matter of meeting the right person or getting to a certain point in your own life or whatever--you'll go there, and your standards and aversions and such will cease to matter. My roommate/best friend in college was pretty shy and had never had a relationship up through college; she had a few crushes on boys during that time, but they never went anywhere, and if she had crushes on girls, she didn't tell me about them. Not long after she graduated, she met an amazing girl and they've been together for a few years now and, at least as of the last time I saw them, they're really happy together. So it's not like there's a timeline or whatever, or, frankly, like there are any constants WHATSOEVER when it comes to romantic relationships. Heh. But I suspect that if and when the conditions are right for you, your current hesitations/objections won't be enough to keep you from taking the leap.

Finally, though, I completely share your rage about the same-sex marriage issue. Obviously, I'm married to a guy, so I don't see all these idiotic restrictions being an obstacle for me, personally, but I have enough friends who might be affected by them, and even if I didn't, it's just wrong and stupid. I keep clinging to the hope that this is the last, desperate, violent gasp of the opponents to same-sex unions, and that maybe things will improve in the future. Because I know a lot of kids, even ones raised with conservative parents, who are a hell of a lot more open-minded than the generation that's currently in power. On the other hand, while I know that this is a fairly significant societal change and those things take time, it still seems ragingly unfair to me to say to my GLBT friends, "Sorry, you're just going to have to wait for your social equality." I don't really want to be resigned to that.

I don't know if that made any sense, or even addressed what you were talking about. Sorry.

[ryokophoenix.livejournal.com]

Honing in one what is clearly the most important point:
IS IT JAVE?

I feel even more asexual than usual after reading that. :P You know my general thoughts about physical attractiveness versus personality.
For some reason you playing the breadwinner role - wearing the pants, as such - makes a lot of sense to me. I could never imagine you as a housewife, but having a housewife/househusband seems to fit the picture well . :D

[ryokophoenix.livejournal.com]

And for a little bit of yay? (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/06/07.html#a8614)

[fahye.livejournal.com]

I saw that! I have joined the ranks of billions who would like to marry Jon Stewart.

It is! Though at the moment it's pretty much a 'you're cute' + 'seems nice' + 'can dance', which is not exactly a very concrete basis for Serious Relationship Thoughts but is certainly better than nothing.

I look good in pants.

[vaudevilles.livejournal.com]

Or move to NZ... we may not have gay marriage but we have the Civil Union Act which gives queer (and straight) couples the same rights as 'married' couples. Plus we have the Care of Children Act which means that when my legally wedded girl has our baby I will be an equal parent and guardian and can be listed on the birth certificate.

Labels are funny things - especially those for sexual orientation. In RL practice I'm pretty much exclusively lesbian, with a penchant for the 'fluffy butch' type... but given my crushes on various non-RL male-types I tend to identify foremost as queer femme with a kink for sparkly banter.

But gender IMO is vital - especially when it's transgressive or fluid. It may have little bearing on attraction as a physical thing but for me it sings deeply as a spiritual aspect that has little to do with what genitals people have. Of course, one of my favourite things to do is perform as a drag queen (ie: me with my real breasts in queen-y makeup with stubble and sideburns while wearing short sparkly frocks and packing), so I'm of the 'gender is performative' school of thought.

As for love... IMO English doesn't have enough ways to define what 'in love' means, especially as we all experience it so differently. So what you believe is what matters.

[izumihydra.livejournal.com]

Hmm. interesting. *waves the bisexual flag, because people tend to forget these days :P*

See, I'm intellectually just like you and agree with you on pretty much all of these points. Where we're DIFFERENT is that I'm an emotional hurricane and until the whole finding-the-love-of-my-life thing was constantly getting crushes, falling in love, and allowing my constantly high sex drive to pretty much dictate a lot of my behaviour. So.

I agree with you on sex (M/F) being important. It IS relevant, and it is part of what makes someone attractive - for me, Shane is so hot BECAUSE she's an androgynous girl - if she was a guy she'd just be scrawny and have a bad haircut. But having studied all this gender stuff, I know that masculininty and femininity aren't anything other than socially determined. They DO NOT make one a male or female - ie. both of us come out decidedly masculine on any gender inventory, because we're determined, achievement-oriented, independent, etc. Does this make us any less female? Not in my opinion. So perhaps the best way to sum up what I feel is to say that on a strictly physical level, sex (M/F) is important to attraction, at lest for me. When it comes to personality, I don't find it even remotely important that people conform to their gender roles and in fact that can hold you back. The fact that Stuart can talk about emotions and express himself is good REGARDLESS of gender, so the fact that it is a feminine trait doesn't and shouldn't bother me in the slightest.


...Oh, and I think you'd be the best lesbian breadwinner ever.

Crush, eh?

[fahye.livejournal.com]

I totally haven't forgotten. I still think of you whenever I see brunette lingerie models.

I don't know what it is with my best friends and Shane. *throws hands in air* You and Ji are both besotted with her, and I just don't see it.

Uh, see above and my comment to Mel :D Just a little one.